Having spent eight years of his life in Hitler’s concentration camps, Pastor Mar- tin Niemoller, at 85, worries about the cur-

tent atmosphere in the Federal Republic of Germany. He cannot forget. The retired President of the World Council of Churches continues today with undi- minished vigor the struggle for detente, disarmament, and peace. Laurent Sauer- ‘Wein, a reporter for L ’Humanite, the

French Communist Party newspaper, in- .

terviewed him in early October.

ee

| y Laurent Saurwein

ren,

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_ Tam anold pastor,’’ Niemodller says. But ‘during the hour we spent together in his ‘Study in Weisbaden, he carried me along in a ‘Whirlwind of astonishing rapidity and pas- faa Within the four walls covered with kshelves, there were a few comfortable auc chairs, polished by numerous discus- ‘Sions,

__ What did he think of current events in the Federal Republic of Germany'(FRG)? Fol- ‘Owing the terrorist attacks, the country Seems to be plunged in a panic fraught with ‘dangers. But Helmut Schmidt and other West German leaders deny that the govern- Ment is moving increasingly in an authori- tarian direction. Would it be wrong to be troubled by this growing tendency toward authoritarianism? oe

_ “Tean answer by a question,” Niemoller /Said. ‘Who in Federal Germany is interested M_ aggravating authoritarianism and rep- Tession? And in this connection, we must hote that the Christian Democratic Union — Which, by the way, is neither Christian nor democratic — and the Social Democrats — Who are no longer socialists since they Adopted the Godesberg Program, and of whom one can no longer say that they are democrats, that both these parties contri- bute to the creation of this atmosphere.

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Niemoiler worries about emulation of nazi period.

_ “But what is serious is that basically the population has little confidence in democ- racy. There is no satisfying model to whichto turn. They are certainly afraid of nazism, but on the other hand, they are even more afraid of communism. One must realize the extent to which the German people have been saturated with anti-communist prop- aganda since 1945...

Pastor Niemdller admits, “An old man can certainly lose much hope,” but he thinks that ‘men can change” and adds: ‘I have never been so revolutionary in all my life.

“Restriction in the professions is spread- ing like the plague, and if the Christian Democrats take over, it will be still worse.

“TI know that what I say reflects a deep distrust of those who govern us, but I beleive that just now the sentiment is general.”

Does he think there is a danger that the right wing will play on this distrust to ad- vance its dangerous goals?

“There are, in fact, some people who are

deceived and manipulated to make them

slavish tools. But where do these small groups of nostalgics find so much money to spread the program and those luxurious invi- tations to their meetings? I always ask my- self the question.” .

Pasotr Niemdller cannot forget the eight years he spent in nazi concentration camps for having preached in a way that was not

_approved. Referring to the’ film Hitler, a Caer now being shown in all West German

cities, he remarks that “it is not a prop- aganda film in the sense. generally. under- that term.”

pee es stated purpose of the film,” he says, “is not to change the spectators into nazi sympathizers. But,” he stresses, “What is serious is that it goes, inreality, in that direc- Se ms

“Beenie this film does not show the depth, the vileness of that period. The con- centration camps and all the horrors of the regime are not shown, or hardly shown.

“Thus this film ends by giving a false pic- ture of that epoch. By showing so-called posi- tive aspects, the essential is masked — the abyss_of violence and cruelty which is in- separable from the nazi system.

Below are the famous words Niemoller uttered after World War Il:

“In Nazi Germany they first came for the Communists and Jehova’s Witnesses but | was not a Communist or a Jehova’s Witness so | did not speak up. Then they came for the Jews and | didn’t speak up because | wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists and | didn’t speak up because | wasn’t a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and | didn’t speak up because | was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up.”’

“‘The young, who did not know Hitler and who knew only the consequences of a lost war, are moved by such a film. They see in it reasons, in spite of all, for being proud... Obviously, that is dangerous. _

“More especially is this so since our coun- try has, somehow, lost contact with its past. The young generation is hardly beginning to

interest itself in this period, but the youngest ones have some teachers who have-.no idea of what nazism was.”

Pastor Niemoller is aware of the dangers hidden in such “‘forgetting.’’ And from the vantage point of his 85 years, he regards with severity, without complacency, the society around him. “‘A Christian,’’ he says, cannot live like a hermit, isolated from the world.”

“TJ keep on doing my work as a Christian, and my main concern since 1947 has been working for peace. Not in theory, for lam not a theoretician, but in practice.

“What interests me,” he said, bending

Pastor Niemoller

‘towards me to emphasize his words, ‘‘is to do something here, now, today and tomorrow, so that there will be no war.

“T still recall: I was at home the sixth of August, 1945, when the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. And a few days later Nagasaki was to follow. We all remembered the frightful bombing of Dresden a few months earlier.

“After Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki, I realized that the character of the war had changed. It was clear that hence- forth there would be no further hesitation to strike civilian populations in a massive, frightful way.

‘“Then the escalation continued with the production of the hydrogen bomb. From that moment, there existed a weapon capable of destroying all life on the face of the earth.”

Pastor Niemoiler does not hide his indig- nation. ‘‘I do not understand,”’ he says, “‘why in these circumstances men and nations can still quarrel and bicker over the simple ques- tion of whether we should move towards dis- armament.

“That leads me to ask myself who is in- terested in the armaments race? Who profits by it? A question all the more burning since nuclear war appears henceforth impossible because it would bring about the destruction of all the people on our planet, because it would be the murder of my children, of my grandchildren, of my greatgrandchildren, of all future generations.

‘*And then, here they are, announcing the neutron bomb! This bomb is, in effect, abso- lutely totally immoral, for it can serve for one thing only — to destroy life. For nothing else, since material objects, the enemy’s possessions.are spared.

“Those who invented this weapon that kills without damaging objects, and those who support them are obviously far more interested ir: material goods than in human life. It is scandalous to devalue human be- ings to such an extent. It is a shameful dis- paragement of man.”

Our conversation ended on this note of ‘warning. And Pastor Niemoller, after walk- ing me to the gate of his little garden with a firm step, returned to resume the work which he had interrupted for the length of a fraternal meeting.

PACIFIC TRIBUNE—FEBRUARY 24, 1978—Page 7