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JESSIE GOULD & INA LUDWIG
Hazelton, Date & Interviewer(s) unknown

Who was here when you arrived in Hazelton?
Well, I didn't arrive in Hazelton, I arrived in New Hazelton.
Well, who was here when you arrived in New Hazelton?
Well they ... the railroad was just coming into new Hazelton at that time and my
dad had worked for the railroad for a while before that and he came back to
Prince Rupert, where I was born in 1909, and brought back my mother and I up
on the first train that came as far as New Hazelton. But it didn't come as far as
the station, you know, where that place is below Beth David.
Why did you come to Hazelton?
Because my dad was working for the railroad.
What changes have you seen in New Hazelton?
So many I could (not?) list them all ...
Just a few then?
Well, I've seen New Hazelton rise and fall, rise and fall again, and rise again.
When we moved over to the hospital here in 1941, we had started Danny in
school in New Hazelton to keep the school open and they needed seven pupils
to keep the school open; so you can see how down it was.
That was in (19)41?
Yeah.
Any other changes you've seen?
Well ... no ...
Is there some change that you find particularly interesting, something that stands
out in your mind, that is special to you?

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Well ... I was only three when I came to New Hazelton and my memories of it
was (that) there was a lot of more or less shacks, you know people were just
coming in and some log buildings, you know that log building at the corner there.
The old museum?
Yeah, where Mrs. Kenny (Kenni?) used to live. Well that building was there but
there was a main street there in New Hazelton and there was a big hotel and
there was a butcher shop and there was a fish shop, a big general store, a bank,
a ladies milliner store, you know when they used to wear hats, a dress making
shop, they all used to be along main street.
Main Street doesn't run where it used to?
The main street was ... oh, how can I explain it, you know where the bus stop is?
And it ran up to Gary Spooner's.
Along Pugsley Street?
Yeah, that's it.
What was the economic base when you arrived? Was it rich or poor?
Well yeah ... 1 mean the railroad was going through that was in 1912, then in
1914 Silver Standard (Mine) opened up and you know it was really busy. Lots of
activity and there was a lot of Chinese people and all nationalities really.
Who worked on the railway?
That's right, and then in (19)14 Silver Standard opened up so that was really
busy.
What kind of population did it have when you arrived?

I couldn't even make a guess, the way I remember it there was a lot of people,
but to a child, well, you know.
A lot of families or single people?
Well, there was a lot of single people but eventually the families made their way
in.
How were the winters when you first came?
Really severe, but more dependable. Winter started in November and then you
were pretty sure that it (would) go through till March and then spring started, we

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used to have hot summers, an awful lot of thunderstorms and I remember I used
to be scared stiff of thunderstorms and winters were really cold, of course we
burned wood, and dressed very warm, you know, we didn't find it cold or
anything, your water pail would freeze at night and all that kind of thing, but your
fire would burn all night.
What kind of activities would take place at the community hall?
They had lots of dancing, lots of dances and they used to have quite a bit of
talent around so they would always have lots of concerts, and of course there
were the pool halls.
What about bars, did they have bars?
Well, they opened this big northern hotel at the end of town, well there was a bar
there, and, I can't really remember where, people got their drinks ... 1 can always
remember my dad when he came over to Hazelton, which was a long journey
then, and he would always come back with a bottle of Hudson's Bay Rum, and it
would be in a bottle that was sort of a wicker around the bottle. You know what I
mean ... I ... 1 don't remember like if they had liquor stores then. I know we always
had a bottle in the house, my dad wasn't a heavy drinker or anything, but where
he got it, I just don't remember.
What kind of schooling was available?
Weill started in the first school in New Hazelton, and we had about 25 students.
People like who? Ones that are here now?
Well, I don't think there are anyone around now that I started school with, one
that I went to school with later on, but started school ... no.
How many schools were there?
There was only one and they used the same building for church. And we'd go to
school all week and on the weekend all the desks were all piled up and Sunday,
we would go to Sunday school and church.
Did the teachers teach church?
No. It was a Presbyterian church, and the fellow who donated the land had a lot
to do with the building of the church. Mind you, it was just a board building,
nothing fancy or anything. It was Donald Macleod, and he owned a lot of the
land in New Hazelton.
Was he a socially wealthy person?

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Well yes, he was one of the people in charge. He was a Scotsman. You see, my
dad came out from Scotland. My mother was a bride, because it was Folly,
Welsh and Stewart that were in charge, and Stewart was Scottish.

Folley, Walsh and Stewart, was that a company?
Yeah. And my dad knew this Stewart from Scotland and that's how he came out
here. Donald Macleod was Scottish too. It was just like anything else when there
was a job, you get people you know.

What kind of education did you receive?
Well, we got the three R's, reading writing and arithmetic, and then, I don't know
how many years we went to that school, maybe five or six hears, and then they
built the building there, you know what I mean up where ... Verna Huson lives
there, so that's where they built the log school there. And we had 30 or more
pupils in that school, a" grades. Which was to Grade 8, you know. As for us, it
went by readers, so the fourth reader would be like your Grade 8. And then there
was some of us that took our high school in that same building, and there was
only one teacher.

For all the grades?
And they had all the grades and this one teacher was an old lady, that is still
living now, and she taught some of us in high school. And we used to go to
school on Saturday, so she really drilled us, and then we went to school during
the week, but we just worked on assignments.
So it was a six day school?
Well no. For us, the high school went six days, the other kids didn't.

What effect did the church have in your community?
We", I know when I was young, I was brought up to go to church and a" our kids
that I was friendly with all did that. We were going to a picnic, some of the kids
used to go horse back riding, I didn't, if they had anything planned for Sunday it
was either after church or before they had church in the morning and in the
evening, in the real early days. But after we got older we, you know, we had lots
of fun, because you create your amusement. They had a tennis court, a
basketball grounds, at the school, lots of games 'cause you made all your own
fun. A group of us, we always had real great times, church was part of Sunday.

How long did it last?

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Oh it would be an hour, but then maybe you'd be in Sunday school an hour. I can
remember when I was a little girl Sunday school would be at 10:00 and church
would start at 11 :00.
So it was very much like today.
And then we had CGIT (?) group, and the boys had Trail Ranger (s?), that was in
connection with the church.
What did they do in that?
Well, it's a girls group, and you learn certain crafts.
You mean like Girl Guides then?
Yeah, something like that, and it had its religious side too. Then we had camps,
we'd go to these camps in the summer. We had a big camp in Lake Kathlyn and
then Smithers would go too. And one year we had a camp up at Silver Standard.
What kind of health services were available?
Well of course the hospital was here, and Doctor Wrinch in the early years.
What can you tell us about Dr. Wrinch?
Ah, I could tell you all kinds of things about him.
Any interesting stories about him?
Yeah, I got books about him; he was really a great man and he was very strict,
but a fair man. And then there was, I can't tell you the year, they started the
nurses' training school they had there. For years and the last one was in (19)32. I
can't tell you what year it started, but it was really early, maybe 1913, it turned
out some really good nurses, it was a three year program and they would come
back and graduate here.
How big was the school?
Oh I think the school would have maybe eight to 12 nurses.
Was the hospital and nurses' school in full operation when you arrived?
Yes. He (Dr. Wrinch?) came to Kispiox before the turn of the century, and then
he came here and he used to operate on his kitchen table. His house was built
first, which was just about where the Whitings house was. And he did many
operations on his kitchen table.

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I've heard a lot of people say there was an elevator in the old hospital.
Oh, there was.
How many floors was it?
Three, but that was the second one, the first was built in 1903, and the second
finished in 1932.
What happened to the first one?
Well, it got inadequate.

So did they knock it down, or did it just fall down?
No, no, knocked down. They built the other one, the second one first, and it was
so close that they were able to move some of the patients out one window and
into the new one.
Would you know anyone that would have pictures of the two together?
No, I wouldn't. I've got pictures of all the hospitals, but not of the two together,
but ... as I say, they turned out some very good nurses from here and you know
it has carried on, there was ...
You mean quality of staff?
Yes, the nurses that left here had really good position in the other place.
What was the reason for shutting it down?
I don't know, maybe it got too expensive. Dr. Wrinch left here in 1936, he had
cancer, he went to Vancouver and died in 1939, so he was here a good many
years.
What did you know about the business community, like Sargents?
Well of course I know Sargents store, but as I told you, I really came to New
Hazelton, in those days, it was a long way between new Hazelton and Hazelton.
How long was it? How long did it take?
Well, we usually came in horse and buggy, a democrat, if it had two wheels it
was called a democrat. And we would come and pack a lunch, we would stop at
Two Mile Creek and have lunch on our way to Hazelton.

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Beside the beaver dam?
Yeah, on the opposite side of the road. But you know the roads, there was no
paved road, it was all dirt. So you know you kind of made a day's outing of it.
What can you tell us about the business community in New Hazelton? What kind
of people ?
They had really good business people. This big general store I was telling you
about, was run by James Richmond, and he was related to this Donald Mcleod I
was telling you about. His wife and old Macleod were brother and sister. They
had the big store. If I was over in New Hazelton, I could show you exactly where
it was, and they had a real general store, sold clothes, shoes, groceries, and I
was telling you about all those other places in town.
I can remember when we first came to New Hazelton, our main sources of meat
was rabbit and when I got a little bit older I used to go with my dad after work.
The fall evening, he's take his gun and go shoot rabbits, and I watched him in the
woodshed, skin them and mother used to shout (spice?) it up with onions and
stuff, it would be really good.
How did she cook it?
She'd, she'd kind of roast it with onions, make a gravy, rabbit in flour.
Sounds good.
Oh, it was really good, but you had to be very resourceful.
Did you have your own garden?
Oh yes. My dad always had a good garden, and a good root cellar of course,
there was no plumbing or anything, you carry your water and we had an
outhouse. We used to ... well, you know Willy Simms?
Yes.
Well I went to school with him. But his dad, we used to call him the night rider.
He'd come around, I don't know what he did with all the stuff he picked up out of
the outhouses. We used to get coal oil in five gallon cans, and of course you
would use them in your outhouses. So he'd come and take all these cans away,
come when everybody can hear him yet, he would always come when everybody
was in bed. Ten-thirty at night, all this jingling and clanging.
It must have been an awful job.

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Yeah .. .for him. Even for garbage. I can remember my dad was a very tidy man,
but every spring, he'd dig a big hole and any garbage, you had nothing like you
have now in garbage because everything wasn't packaged. You bought stuff in
bulk. My mother didn't use that many canned stuff, she'd buy canned milk, you
know you cooked all your own stuff.
So we didn't have near as much garbage as you do now, and it would all go in
the gunnysack hung on the back of the wood shack door. When that was full you
dumped it in the hole and dug another one. I often think that if you knew where
all that garbage was, there would be all kinds of old bottles; medicine bottles,
liver bottles. You had to be so resourceful.
What about plumbing, water, and things like that?
Well, you know that pump that your mom has? Well, that used to be called the
village pump and it was where Caferas (?) are now, and so I can remember my
dad. I told you where we lived, would have to come up with the tracks of course. I
used to love to go on these walks with him when I got a bit older, and he'd get
two pails of water from this pump and carry it down to the house. After when we
moved up there he bought property there, so we kind of owned the pump, and
everybody used to use it in the village, and I remember one day where I got older
that this Saul, that ran the paper place.
Well he and my dad. My dad never cared for him very much. One day Saul came
to my dad, he was a rude kind of guy, kind of a know-it-all. He was mad at my
dad, something to do with the pump. Nobody said anything. So my dad got really
mad at him and said "I won't lay my tongue to any fancy names, I'll just tell you
you're related to the canine family!" which is like calling him an S.O.B.
What kind of entertainment was available? Was there a show hall or a
newspaper?
Well, there was a newspaper. The Omineca Herald.
Tell us about the Omineca Herald. What was the story behind that?
Well, he worked in Prince Rupert on a newspaper first. Then he came up to
Hazelton and then he moved over to New Hazelton and started the paper there. I
worked for him for a while. When I was in my time, I used to work for him on
Saturdays.
Did they have dancing girls here?
I can't remember off hand if they did, but they used to put on a lot of concerts,
they had dancing girls, but it wasn't like up in Dawson City or anything.

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Material
What kind of concerts?
Well, talent show, plays, and they used to have a lot of dances.
What do you know about the steamboats?
Well, there again, I don't know too much because I lived in New
Hazelton, and
the steamboats came to Hazelton.
You were a railroad person?
Yah, I came with the railroad. The steamboats quit coming in (19)13.
Not too long after the railroad came in.
Yah, (19)13.
Was there a regression for Hazelton after the steamboats quit
coming? Did
things seem to be more directed towards New Hazelton?
Yeah, in a certain way I guess, but they still had all these pack horses.
They were still running those, eh? Did you ever meet Cataline?
Yeah, yeah.
What can you tell us about him?
Well, he was a guy, Cataline, he was a heavy drinker, a heavy rum
drinker, rum
was the big thing, then and he'd take a drink of rum and then he'd pour
some in
his hand and rub it through his hair.
Why did he do that?
He was, well he thought it was quite good for his hair, and you know, he
had a lot
of hair, heavy haired, fairly long, as I remember.
Was he clean?
Well, I wouldn't say extra ... maybe if he was dressed up he would be.
Probably he had a bath every six months whether he needed it or not.
What can
you tell us about the Myros building? When was it built?

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Well, there again, that was Hazelton. I can remember the Myros bulding when I
was very young to Hazelton. You always went to Myros. Then it was C.B. Smith,
and then Matt Myros married C.R. Smith's daughter, so he was taken in as a
partner, and it was Myros and Smith Store. It was always such a nice store, you
know, as stores go. When you went to Hazelton, you always go to Myros &
Smith.
How often did you go to Hazelton?
On, not very often, it was a very big occasion.
Like a trip into Smithers and Terrace?
Well, even more.
Almost like a trip to Prince George.
I used to go to Prince Rupert more than I"d go to Hazelton because, when we
came here, you see, I was born with a bad leg. When I came to New Hazelton,
they didn't have any X -ray machines in the hospital, so I had to go down to
Prince Rupert about every three months to have my leg X-rayed, and they were
hoping they could do something for it. So, I bet you I went to Prince Rupert more
than Hazelton, and of course my dad had a pass on the train.
What did he do for a living?
Who?
Your dad.
Well, he worked for the railroad as a labourer, he built it. Then, this is why we
settled in Hazelton, they built a big warehouse in one of those pictures you can
see a rail, and he was made manager or head, whatever you call it, of this
warehouse, and that's why we settled in New Hazelton, and then after that, when
it finally closed down, he was boss of a section crew, you call it.
When did you move down to this area?
Down to the hospital, it was in (19)41.
After you were married?
Oh, it was a long time after we got married. I finally went to work in Smithers. I
went with Harold five years, then we got married smack in the middle of the
Depression in February (19)32. And at that time people were going on what they

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called relief. There was relief camps all along every so far, and I think the men
got 25 cents an hour.
But you kind of looked down on going on relief, you know what I mean, and so
Harold, through a man in Smithers, got a job at the Barrett Ranch, which was the
biggest ranch, then in the valley, and that's just this side of Houston. That's
where I went as a bride, and Harold didn't know the first damn thing about
ranching, no way was he ever a rancher.
And I always remember the first night he was there, an old packer, really well
known, as well as Cataline, so he always used to call Harold "boy". So the first
night Harold was there, he said "I'm going to Houston" which was nine miles
away. So he said there were nine cows to milk. "So I'll leave you to milk them."
Harold said that Barrett came back and said "Well, boy, how did you do?" Harold
said "oh, good."
"How much milk did you get?"
"One pail," said Harold, from nine cows.
"Well," Barrett said, "you have a lot to learn."
But you did what you could in those days. To keep off this relief thing.

What foods were available then that you couldn't get now?
You mean in my young days?

Well, things that you used a lot of, but don't use now.
The only thing I can remember that is hard to get now is oatmeal, we didn't buy
rolled oats, we bought oatmeal of course, we always had porridge, every
morning. But I think you can get everything now. But they were in bulk. None in
cans. We used a lot of fish and rabbit in those days.

How much was your salary?
Well, the first job I went to, I got ten dollars a month.

Where?
Smithers.

Doing?
Housework.

For?
A family.

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Who?
Carrs, people by the name of Carrs.
That was when you were living in Smithers? And from there where did you go?
Well, I worked there until I got married, I was home for a long time. My dad
always thought, it was, I was the oldest in the family, and there were seven of us.
My dad's idea was that the oldest was to stay home and help out with the rest of
the family.
How did you get to Smithers?
Train.
What was the road to Smithers like?
Well, I can remember when you would think of Smithers and back in one day and
then I can remember, when the cars came in you never went to Smithers without
finding out, maybe not by phone, there weren't that many phones, maybe the
moccasin telegraph, how the road was to Smithers. You never started out to go.
Then when I was a lot older, it used to take four hours to go. But of course there
was always the train. Which was the easy way to go.
What do you remember about the first car? Were you here when the first car
came to Hazelton?
I can remember having my first ride in a car. And that car belonged to George
Wall.
Was that the first car owned in the area?
Well, it was the first car into Hazelton, so I guess it would have been.
And you rode in it?
I can remember riding in it, it was really something, running boards.
What year was that?
1912-1916,1917.
How was your salary divided up?

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When I was working, I had board, when we got married and Harold went to work
on the Barrett Ranch and got thirty dollars a month, we had a little log cabin to
live in, so we had rent and we got our milk, meat and garden produce from the
Barrett's farm. So we thought we were doing pretty good.

A dollar a day?
Yeah, that's what it worked out to be. In June (19)33, Barretts decided they
COUldn't pay that anymore, so we went to Lowe's Ranch further west near
Telkwa. We got ten dollars a month there, and we both worked for it, she was a
real English woman. She had a nice big house, but she never did anything.
We were to get our room and board too, but we never would have got anything if
I hadn't got in there and pitched in. So we both worked for ten dollars a month.
But there too, we got our produce and our milk.

What was the overall effect when the Indian school and the public schools were
amalgamated?
I think that was the greatest thing that ever happened in the area. At that time, I
belonged to the PT A, and we sure worked hard for an amalgamated school We
had balloons on sports day, sell hot dogs, we really worked, a lot of us I mean. I
think that ws the best thing that happened at the school.

Why do you feel this?
Well, because. You know the white children went to the white school, and the
native children went to the native school, and that wasn't right. I think the natives
learned a lot from the whites, and the whites learned a lot from the natives. I
mean as far as school went.

Did you find a lot of prejudice when the school amalgamated?
Well, there was a lot of prejudice when I lived in New Hazelton. That was the
place that was prejudice(ed). Wouldn't you say?
INA LUDWIG: Yeah, I think so. They had terrible schools for everybody though. I
worked with them for a period, and the schools were just awful.

Dumpy. The teachers, what about the teachers? What were they like?
The teachers, we might as well of had tom cats. Terrible.
They had good and bad, but the majority of them were bad. The kids used to
walk to school, and then there were not buses. And they'd take their lunches and
if they didn't freeze on the way down, they would freeze at the school.

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Remember when Grace Lynn was teaching, there was Allen, Toby, Marshall,
that crew, she'd send them to the river for a pail of water for the school, and of
courrse they would take half the day, fiddle around, fool around, they'd come
back with the water, and she would give them an apple for being such good
boys. They split over her left and right, such a sweet old lady. (laughter)
The buildings of course weren't adequate. But it was the same when J went to
school in New Hazelton. You know you had a heater at the back of the room, a
big wood stove, you'll freeze on one side and be too hot on the other.
That was 1950 when I started visiting schools here and they were filthy.

Was there any codes or regulations governing them at that time?
(IL) I guess there was, but they weren't followed too closely.
And yet, you know, I think in some way the kids got a better, maybe not
educationally, but, you know when I was in Prince George a couple of times ago,
Elsie Gilner, she came to see me, her and Allen used to go to school, we got
talking. She said "We sure got a good bringing up in those days, and everybody
was interested in us and interested in what we did," she named some of them
like Polly Sargent and a lot of them, and she said they were always interested in
us. And I said that's why you all turned out so good, cause Elsie has such a good
job and she goes "that's right", she said "we had lots of love."
(IL) A lot of those kids are mighty fine educated people. I don't know how but
they did it. I think it was family.
Well, that's what I'm saying, and everybody was interested in every body elses'
kids.
So they had a better education?
Well, I don't know as far, it was a different type I think.
(IL) Well, it was the whole person that was better.
The academic wasn't maybe as good, but the person was better. And as you'll
say, a lot of people got darn good positions coming from that school People
cared more.

What crime, police protection?
Well the police were good too. We had some of the best police officers around.
Like Jimmy Ward, and Tony West.

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Was there much of a crime problem?
Well I think you went to jail, or you didn't go to jail kind of thing. I mean, like for
instance, there was a lot of bootlegging before the natives were allowed to go to
the bar. So they would buy raisins or something. You know, like Jimmy Ward or
Tony West, would go up and you would know that they had brew on and they
would tell then that they shouldn't buy so many raisins or something of that sorts.
Kind of ruled the place with love, didn't they? It's hard to explain 'cause it was so
different.
(IL) Nobody had money, and you know how money and trouble go together.
Tell us your story of the bank robbery?
Well, I can remember that like it was yesterday. It was a Monday morning, my
mother was washing Hudson Bay blankets, of course no washing machine, so
she was out there. She had a hand wringer that you screwed on the wash tub,
and you turned it.
She had me pulling the blankets. Well in 1914 I would have been five. All of a
sudden we heard this shot. I don't know who it was, but my mother was having a
fit, because we weren't very far from it. When we first heard the shot, my mother
thought it was Dutch Joe. He lived in a black tar paper shack on one of the
shortcuts into town. He used to hammer the door, walk the floor, hammer the
door, walk the floor. Somebody came running in from the warehouse where my
dad worked, and told us about the bank robbery.
One shot?
That's the only one I can remember. This one shot was fired, and it just missed
the back of Mrs. Richmond. Our minister then was a man named Maclean, and
he grabbed his gun. How he lived up, you know where the little church used to
be, where the manse is now, and he just had to run down the road and he fired a
shot and he killed one of them. So they used to call him the shooting preacher.
You know a lot of people say that the money is still buried somewhere.
How much was taken?
Oh, I don't know, it was a lot of money though, I guess it had been pay day. Now
whether it was in (19) 14 and Silver Standard was opened up ... the bank
manager's name was Thatcher. I've read so many stories, and they all have a
funny twist to them. There was two robbers shot, and two got away.
How many tellers were there?
Oh, I don't know.

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Was there no bank in old town (Hazelton) at this time?

I don't think so, I think they used to do their banking in Sargent's store.
Do you have any memories of the Anglican church?
There again, I was in New Hazelton.
Yes, but was there some time when you were active around it?

I don't think I was ever in the Anglican church until we moved over here.
Did you ever ride the steam boats?

I never even saw a steam boat.
What was South Hazelton like?
Well, it existed, but they had big dreams of what South Hazelton would be like,
they were going to make it like a little Chicago, but it never materialized.
Are you happy with the way things turned out?
Yes.