FEATURE. — The following is an interview with Thozam- ile Botha, a national executive member and administrative secretary of the South African Congress of Trade Unions (SACTU). Botha, who was in Vancouver in 1980 following his banning from South Africa for leading a two- month strike of Ford workers in Port Eliza- beth, now works from Lusaka, Zambia. The interview was conducted by Bill Dennison, a Staff writer for the Daily World, during Botha’s recent visit to New York. Q: What is the situation of Black workers in South Africa? A: I would say that since 1976 there has been a qualitative development in the strug- gle for freedom in South Africa. The regime has found it difficult to control the situation, and the people have rendered the country ungovernable. Each round of concessions has led to new demands. The regime, after many years of denying Blacks their right to form trade unions, finally agreed that Blacks could form trade unions. In 1979-80, Blacks made even more sig- nificant demands — that they would like to form trade unions of their choice, not join those formed by the regime according to ethnic groupings or tribes. The regime orig- inally said that whites, Colored, Indians and Black Africans should have different trade unions within the same plant. But the people forced the regime to make changes even in that legislation. Further, the majority of strikes during the past two or three years have been politi- cal strikes. For instance, in 1971, workers in many factories downed tools and refused to be party to the celebrations of the fascist and racist republic. Later, when Dr. Neil Argett was killed in detention by the gestapo police, more than 100,000 workers throughout the country downed tools for about 50 minutes in pro- test. Early this year, when Cela, a member of FOSATU (Federation of South African Trade Unions), was killed while in deten- tion, workers again downed their tools. Last Nov. 5 and 6, there was a total stay-at-home in the Transvaal province in protest against the occupation of Sutang, one of the Black townships, by the racist army, which was killing innocent women and children. This stay-at-home resulted in 16 leaders of the United Democratic Front being charged with high treason. Four of those trade unions are from SACTU. This is an indication that the struggle is gaining momentum and the quality of the Struggle is changing. The workers are beginning to realize that they have got a big role to play in changing that society. Q: Recently there have been reports of some white students participating in protest actions apartheid. Have any of the white - against workers in the trade union movement become involved in efforts on behalf of the majority of South African workers? A: Generally speaking, it is unfortunate that the majority of white workers see them- selves as part of the ruling class. But there are a few individuals who fully identify themselves with the oppressed masses. After a long time, the Boilermakers Society, one of the oldest trade unions in South Africa, pulled out of one of the reac- tionary trade union centres, TUCSA (Trade Union Council of South Africa), for politi- cal reasons in 1983. A TUCSA congress had decided that the government must ban all non-registered Black trade unions on the grounds that they were troublemakers. The Boilermakers Society said that TUCSA is becoming more and more right-wing and they would not be party to sucha union that is advocating suppression of other workers. The Boilermakers Society has been trying to join the current unity talks for the forma- tion of one national, democratic trade union federation. The membership of this union is about 50-50 Black and white. The leadership is mixed. It has moved away from a situation like many of the so-called mixed unions, where the whites are in leadership even though the Blacks are in the majority of the membership. Significantly, several other unions, I THOZAMILE BOTHA.. .in 1980 address to Vancouver and District Labor Council meeting. SAGTU: towards unity of South Africa’s workers think two of three more, pulled out of TUCSA for various reasons. Q: What can you tell us about the progress towards a unity conference of the new inde- pendent trade unions? A: It has made very big strides. At the beginning, a number of problems hindered the achievement of this federation. Some unions were skeptical about participating in political activities. Another difference was over registration. Lately, most of these problems have been overcome. People have begun to realize that these were not principled issues, they were tactical issues that could be shelved for the sake of unity. In a significant development, more than 40 trade unions met in May and June, then again in August. At the June meeting, the majority of unions agreed to a five-point statement of principles. Among them were non-racialism (no segregation), organiza- tion of the federation along industrial lines, and internal democracy within the trade union movement. There was also a problem over affiliation to broader political organizations. But this division was also overcome, by allowing the individual affiliates of the federation to chose whom they want to affiliate with. Another difference was over the general workers unions, which are large and numerous. At first the federation was to be purely based on the industrial principle. That principle was accepted, but to facilitate the formation of the federation, the unions agreed that in the initial stage the general workers unions would be allowed to join, and later be phased out. This is also a move in the right direction. 10 e PACIFIC TRIBUNE, NOVEMBER 20, 1985 Q: What will be the role of SACTU in these new developments? A: SACTU is an underground organiza- tion, operating under conditions of illegal- ity. It can no longer have shop steward committees in the factories. SACTU’s role is to insure that the principles and policies upon which it was founded continue to guide and inspire the trade union move- ment. Its task is to insure that the unorgan- ized workers are organized into trade unions. As a mediator in the unity talks that have been going on during this period, SACTU has issued letters and written statements, which have been read at some of the unity talks, giving guidelines for how the unity should be achieved. SACTU enjoys wide Support among a cross-section of the trade union movement. We believe that a trade union is an amor- phous body, with all kinds of members. Thus we should not be divided on political lines within the trade union movement. It is our duty, therefore, that when workers join a trade union, we begin the process of poli- ticizing them in the right direction. Q: Has the Botha regime taken any steps against these rapidly growing new unions, particularly now that unity talks are proceed- ings? A: So far, the regime has found it difficult to interfere. Since its past attempts to form unions according to ethnic lines failed, it has begun to harass the leadership of the unions. Trade unions like SAAWU, the South African Allied Workers Union, for exam- ple, have been banned in the Ciskei, one of the Bantustans. This is one of the biggest unions in the unity talks. It is banned because of its radicalism. It has organized very successfully in one of the Black ghettos _ in East London. The regime has not been happy about - this development. Its fear is that if the trade unions can be organized under one national centre, it will be easier for them to organize a sustained strike, which would hit hard at the economy. Q: While you are in the U.S., you will be attending several trade union conventions. What you will tell U.S. workers about your struggle and how they can help? A: My mission here is mostly to address the question of sanctions. This question is more relevant at this stage now that the regime is panicked about sanctions when its econ- omy is ailing. It is making all kinds of threats, like send- ing 1.5 million workers back to the neigh- boring states if the Western world imposes economic sanctions. The regime wants to play on the idea that © if economic sanctions are imposed on South © Africa, the countries in southern Africa will — starve, or that the Blacks in South Africa © will be the ones hit hardest. | But to us, economic sanctions is not just an economic issue; it is a political issue. There are more than three million unem- © ployed workers in our country. That — excludes workers who are in the so-called — independent states, the Bantustans. If the — present system continues, there is no hope — of employment for those workers. e There is no morality in investing in an abnormal society like South Africa, where — the majority of the people are opposed and exploited. No company goes to South — Africa because it has the interests of the — Black people at heart; they go because they — want to maximize profits. They are doing so — under the protection of the racist South — African laws. . The National Key Point Act of 1980 pro- — vides that the minister of defence has the — right to declare any area of company a — “national key point” and appoint com- — manders to protect that area or property \ against saboteurs, espionage, subversion ~ and so forth. We know from experience that strikes in South Africa are regarded as sab- otage and therefore workers are already fac- — ing “high treason” for having been involved | in strikes. High treason is a charge that — carries a death sentence. ; Taking all these factors into account, the Black workers are saying our struggle is a political struggle. We want to be free politi- — cally and economically, and our political and economic demands cannot be satisfied in a racist South Africa. Therefore that — regime must be brought to its knees — from — all angles and all fronts. The armed struggle goes on. The workers have the duty to insure that the economy of the country goes down. The international community has a very big role to play. We are saying that trade unions must not handle goods destined for _ or coming from South Africa. They must — refuse to serve cargoes going or coming. We are saying they must force their government — to cut diplomatic ties with South Africa. They must refrain from selling their skills to apartheid South Africa. South Africa boasts of producing arms and other sophisticated equipment because of skills coming from different countries. For this reason, we are saying this campaign must be intensified. F Already workers in other countries have made decisions. In France, for instance, in September, the workers occupied a coal ship for two days, refusing to unload coal from that ship. Workers in different coun- tries in Africa — the Sudan, for example — decided they would not service airlines going to South Africa or load goods on them. These are significant steps. Efforts must be stepped up to stop the selling of the Krugerrand coin. Companies ~ must be forced to pull out of South Africa, — and people with investments in companies — that have dealings with South Africa should pull their funds out from those companies. Trade unions that have pension funds in» these companies must withdraw those funds and put them in other banks.