PAGE 2, THE HERALD, Wednesday June 22, 1977-

Supreme Court.

I did.

JUSTICE

It is somewhat indmidating to ask a lowly reporter
such as myself to interview a justice of the B.C.

But, contrary to my apprehensions, the Honorable
Mr. Justice Lloyd George McKenzie; chairman of the
Royal Commission inquiring into the B.C. Railway
turned out to be a most hospitable chap.

. Airiendly man with white hair and a round, ruddy
face, he shook my hand, ushered me into his room,
offered mea seat and told me tofire away.

The ensuing interview gave a tremendous insight
into the massive job which lies before the commission
and also, perhaps, an inkling as to what the judge's
own views are thus far into the Inquiry.

McKENZIE '

The Royal Commission
inguiring into the British
Columbia Railway (BCR)
has been holding public
hearings for more than six
weeks, but the job of its
chairman, the Honorable
Mr. Justice Lloyd George
McKenzie, and the two other
commissioners has just
begun.

In an exclusive interview
with the Herald, McKenzie
said that although the public
hearings will be completed
next week, he does not
expect the final report to be
ready until early in 1978.

McKenzie explained that
this “first phase” of the
commission’s work has
provided an opportunity for
intervenors - such as
railway users,
municipalities, chambers of
commerce and other
interested groups - to make
their opinions known.

He said that the
commission also has heard
“a detailed overview” from
the BCR.

“What we have heard is
going to give us guidance
and help us decide what
areas ate deserving of
special research by our own
forces,” he said.

The commission members
will spend July and August
digesting the material from
the public hearings and
setting priorities for the

athering of research and

ther evidence.

“We're all developing
feelings (about those
riorities),’’ McKenzie said,
ut he declined to state what

specific research is likely to
be undertaken.

He estimated that the
research phase of the
inquiry should last until the
end of the year.

In the fall, while the
research phase is
underway, the commission
will hear a more detailed
presentation from the BCR
‘concerning the vital issues
as they see them.” |

Then, in 1978, the
commission's own staff will
be as a consequence of
material submitted in a
public way,’’ McKenzie
emphasized, “Their
evidence can be cross
examined and searched and
checked and evaluated the
same way everybody else’s
evidence is.”

He said there was also a
sibility witnesses would
called in front of the

commission te present
expert testimony on’
particular facts

The commission's terms
of reference are extremely
broad, but McKenzie stated
that “‘the thing divides itself
naturally into a number of
areas.”

According to the judge ,
those areas are: the Fort
Nelson line, the Dease Lake
extension project, the Rail
west railcar plant in
Squamish, as well as the

eneral economic future of

e railway.

Related issues include
various plans for rail
expansion, contentious BCR.
contracts with companies
such as MEL Paving,

Miners want

extension |

The Mining Association of
British Columbia made a
-plea before the Royal

mmission enquiry into
British Columbia Railway
for the completition of the
Tailway rom  Sustut
dunction to Dease Lake.

we .

Peter Matthew, managing
director of the 65-member
association, told the
commission, however,
mining companies will give
no guarantee that resources

ili be developed if the
tracks are laid.

“Perhaps if all taxes are
removed from the mining
industry, the companies
might give such a
guarnatee,’’ he quipped.

Martin Taylor, counsel for
the commission told
Matthew the companies
would have a long wait for
tax exemption.

“) think that will follow
shortly after conversion to
Islam," he retorted.

In effect, the mining brief
contended, there is little
difference whether the rail
runs north from Prince

_ George through Sustut
Junction to Dease Lake or
north from Terrace through
Meziadin Lake to Dease
Lake.

The important thing is
that it reach Dease Lake,
the association believes,
However, since the BCR
track already exists
between Prince George and
Sustut, the mining
companies support the

i

completition of the original
extension, despite the fact
that the Terrace route is
shorter.

“From the point of view of
making copper mines in the
Dease Lake area -more
economically viable and
consideririg the fact that the
construction of copper
smelters in B.C, is not
presently economic, the
shorter route through
Terrace would have seemed
more logical,” the brief
stated.

The association stressed
that the building of the
railway would not
necessarily make the
exploitation of mineral
deposits economical in the
immediate future.

Asked by Taylor if it is
“feasible”? to expect
railways to build routes ‘‘on
hope, at a present cost of
between $1.2 and $1.5 million
a mile Matthew replied that
the extension would prove
economical ‘‘in time.’

The association further
suggested an extension of
the railway to the Alaskan
border for the movement of
freight and ‘strategic
materials’’ would ‘generate
excitement and enthusiasm
among Americans.” «

The mining submission
was the last of nine

resented to the commission
in Terrace.
Supreme Court Justice
Lloyd McKenzie, the
hearing moved on to
MacKenzie toresuem today.

A

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_f

ROBERT KITCHING'

Watson quits

VANCOUVER (CP) — A
split in the Greenpeace
Foundation has led to the
forced resignation of Paul
Watson, the Greenpeace
seal protester who was
injured earlier this year
when he handcuffed himself
to a bale of seal pelts on the
ice north of Newfoundland.

Watson, who has been dis-
missed as a Greenpeace
director, said in an
interview Monday he was
asked to resign two weeks
ago because of differences
of opinion with foundation
president -Pat Moore and
ormer president Bob
Hunter.

Watson said that when he
refused to resign, he was
dismissed.

Watson, 26, who said he’s
founding a new wildlife con-
servation group of his own,
said the reasons for his split
with Greenpeace involved
both a personality dispute
and a ‘‘difference of
philosophy.”’

He said he will lead his
own expedition to the seal
hunt next year because he
does not approve of the
Greenpeace Foundation
allowing French film star
Brigitte Bardot to become
involved in the campaign.

“I think she’s just on a
publicity rip. said Watson,
“She may sincere, but
she’s used to further her
career,”

“RISKED LIFE"

“I did throw two clubs but’

I don’t think that's an act of
violence,” he said.

"I. risked my life and
that’s all they cansay to me,

Greenpeace

There doesn't seem to be
any compassion in
Greenpeace for its own
members.”

Hunter
interview, ‘“we consider that
sort of action to be theft or
destruction of property and
it’s totally against our
principles.’

Watson, who will now not
be taking part in the
Greenpeace _anti-whaling
expedition this summer,
said there have been many
disputes between the
Vancouver and Honolulu
offices about the ships going
on this expedition.

Hunter said any problems
have now been resolved and
the ships salling from both
places will be under the

nner of Greenpeace.

Watson said his new
organization is called the
International
Survival Foundation and
founding memberships (15
sold so far) cost $100.

“The fee is high because
we don't want to get into
tedious fund-raising,
begging from door to door,”’
he said.

Meanwhile, Greenpeace
said its observers a
International Whaling
Commission in Canberra
Australia, have reported
that the commission's
scientific advisory
committee has called for an
almost total ban on the
killin
the North Pacific.

The meeting is closed to
the press,

said ‘in * an.

Wildlife .

of sperm whales in.

te
at

_ AT BCR HEARINGS. = > ,
Commissioners’ work

By ANDREW PETTER
Herald staff writer

porposals to establish a
separate crown co

the system and the recentl
signed Northwest Rail
Agreement.

One area of study will not
have to wait until 1978 for a

‘recommendation.

During the hearings in
Squamish, the commission

requested a special study

into the Railwest plant and
decided it’ would probably

issue an interim report on
the facility.

The study was presented
last Friday and McKenzie
says the interim report will
be submitted to the

provincial cabinet “‘right
away."

Regarding the other
areas, Mackenzie said the
commission will make a
recommendation ‘‘as to
whether or not the Fort
Nelson line- can exist a5 an
economic branch of the
railroad, having regard for
all the physical difficulties
that Hie in the way of its
successful operation.

“There was evidence that
they have to repair the line.
every time they put a train
over it,” he pointed out.

A recommendation: also
will be made whether the
BCR line ‘‘should be
extended according to the.
present plan to the terminus
at Dease Lake.” .

Although the Social Credit
government recently halted
construction on the Dease
Lake extension . without
consul or advising the
commission, McKenzie said

ration
for capital expenditures on .

“we are not critical of that.”

Asked if he was surprised
by the move, the judge
smiled and said he could not
remember. |
. McKenzie sald that the
commission. is ‘seeking
further information into
current financial ‘situation
of the railway. .

“We are asking the
railway to separate out its
numbers. on its passenger
operation, on its iggy back
operation, on the movement
of forest products, grain
products, and cattle.

‘Algo, to separate out the
profit and loss on the
operation of the Fort Nelson
extension, the Dease .Lake
extension...’’ and other
sections. .

‘We are asking them for
more details in some areas
than they have so far
produced themselves,” he

stated. . .
The question of political
interference with the
railwayis an
“inescapable,..part of the
nattative’’ McKenzie
acknowledged, “but we are
not here to write a history of
the role played by a variety
of politicians. .

“We are concerned with
the quality of. the decisions
rather than the personalities
of the persons who made the
decisions.”

McKenzie has no
delusions of power. He
knows the role previous
Royal Commissions have,
and -have not, played in

_ advising governments.

“Governments never give

the. compelling

‘reaching

_ Dlace, specific me

“
‘ m_) ne
we t

has just begun

‘royal commissions

assurances in advance,
McKenzie pointed out.
He sald that the inquiry’s
influence would depend on
‘how useful the report of the
royal commission is, how
it is, how
persuasive it is.”
ed if the commission

“would simply lay out
‘alternatives
government or would take

for ‘the
an ‘advocacy position’ as in
the case 3 the Berger
inquiry, McKenzie said, “I
would think that the report
that comes from us will be
part advocay.”

“we will © make
recommendations and we
will make —- some
recommendations ‘with

greater fervor than we
make others, and in that
way we are advancing, in an
advocate’s way, a certain
thesis,” he said. | ;

The judge also-
emphasized there are three
commissioners of differing
backgrounds. ;

“We are a compositional
mob,” hesaid. “We are sort
of a jury in a sense.”

He said that he and the
otier two members “have
had no problems so far" in
decisions. _
However he conceded that if
serious deisagreements took

‘or
resolving them would have
to be worked out and
‘minority reports’ could

result.
Although the judge

refrained from suggesting

what recommendations he

- different lights.”

by the ra
. structure <:of the railway

forsaw some indication of al
his thinking was evident].

during the interview.

Asked about the financial.

future of the railway,
McKenzie responded: — :
“A Jot of the evidence we
have received goes to the
point that th different
ments of the railway
should be considered “in

“Part of it is a pioneer,

developmentalrailway - the] -

northern extensions are: of
that nature - and the
argument runs that it is not
sensible to hope that they
can pay for themselves. ,
“on the other hand, the]
developed, mature parts: of
the line - the line certainly

from Prince George sou
and probably up to. Fort
Saint John and Dawson
Creek and MacKenzie -
should pay..their own way.”
“There has been a good
deal of argument resented
way that the debt

should be reorganized so as
to take theold debt which
has been accumunlating for
50 years or more off the
back of the railway so that it
can funcilon in terms of
a profit on a lesser
capi investment.”
ieKenzi

see see
a pro e
volt Piresh start with its

debt load off its back.”

Such a proposal would
probably call for a new
crown corporation to handle
railway expansion and other
new capital projects.

BCR decision could be
disastrous for Rupert port

_ By DAVID RICHARDSON

Herald Associate Editor

To extend a rail line north
from Sustut to Dease Lake
without providing a direct
connection to the cbast
would be “disastrous” ‘for
the Port of Prince Rupert,
the Royal Commission
enquiry into British
Columbia Railways was told
yesterday.

Speaking on behalf of the

Prince Rupert Chamber of.

Commerce, Robert Kitching
told the commission much

the tremendous capital and
land investments made by

the federal and provinclal

governments in. Prince
Rupert facilities will go to
waste unless it is made
finacially attractive to shi
resource products throu
that port. a
“The outcome of this
hearing is
important to the future of
Prince Rupert," he said.
The only existing rail
connection between Prince
Rupert and Prince George is
owned by Canadian
National Railways -which
cannot compete with ‘lower
BCR freight rates on the
southern line from Prince
George to Vancouver,

Restaurants stingy with

SEATTLE (AP) — From
here to Spokane, many
restaurants are abiding bya
trade assoclation request to
withhold, glasses of water
from meals unless
specifically ordered by the
customer.

Arandom check of about a
dozen ‘restaurants showed
most no longer serve water
automatically.

Utilities say the practice
helps to save energy which
otherwise would be used to
wash glasses.

The Washington
Restaurant Association
several months ago urged
members to withhold the
traditional glass of water.
By cutting down on hot
water use for dishwashing
and employee elbow grease,
the missing water glass also
saves money for res-
taurants.

“We tried withholding
water one night and our
guests were quite insulted so
we went back to serving
water, sir,’’ said the
manager of one of Seattle’s
fancier eateries.

A combination ice cream
parlor-restaurant serves

incredibly |

., chamber

Kitchi ointed out,
ne? cheaper, he
. contended, to ship lumber

from Vanderhoot to Prince
_ George, then south to
-Varicouver by train and
-»from-Vancouver back up to
Prince Rupert by water
than ,to chip it from
‘Vanderhoof dir
’ Prince Rupert.
_ If BCR, a provincially
subsidized railway, were to
increase its rates to match
- those of CNR, it would be
feasible to transport ore and
wood products from as far
east as Prince
George to Prince Rupert for
export to the Pacific Rim
countries, Kitching argued.
He quoted statistics
indicating CNR rates are as
much as 50 per cent higher
than those of BCR because

of the government subsidy.
His lgures however were

litle as six cents per mile
more than those of BCR.

*_ Kitching, who is president
of the Prince Rupert.
por: told... -the:
commission presgure from
the Council .of Forest
Industries is largely

ectly to -

chamber. o

responsible for keeping BCR
rates as low as they are.
“The council has had a
great deal of influence for a
very. Long, time,”"’ he

that his

 stiggeste

‘He ‘added in

were
competitive with CNR, only
20 per cent. of the freight
traffic south from Priace
George to Vancouver would
be diverted to Prince
Rupert, he continued.

In its brief, read to the
commission by Kitching, the

commerce
that future
subsidies be
to the shippers

suggested
railw.
‘direc

‘rather than to railways

themselves.

Railways in the north
sould operate in such a way
as to recover their costs
through revenue on a ‘user
pay” basis, the brief stated.

In questioning Kitching on
behalf of the BCR, Roberts
suggested both Stewart and
and: Kitimat would be
excellent locations-and the
former is much Closer to the
lumber and — mining
resources which may

BY AGREEMENT

water automatically
because nothing else goes as
well with ice cream said a
waitress there.

- “We had a meeting and
talked about it and decided
to serve water. Water is the
normal crink with ice

.¢ream. Hardly anybody’

drinks anything else.

“But we aren't wasting it.
Whatever they don’t k,
we use to clean ashtrays and

rinse dishes.”

At another moderately-
priced restaurant, water
appears only upon demand.

“It’s an added help to us,”
the manager explained,
“We used to dump it down
the drain all the time when
people wouldn’t drink it.”

six restaurants in one
chain refuse to serve water
unless requested.

“It was a waste of water,
ice and dishwashing

eventually be exploited :in
the northern end of ‘the
province. :

Kitching countered

however, that facilities

would have ‘to ‘built ‘at
Stewart whéreas_ they
already exist in Prince

Rupert. Kitimat he
described as “primarily a
private port.”

“Ht must be a viable
location or the private port
wouldn't be located there,”
he noted, but todevelop itas
arail terminal port would be
to “dilute Prince Rupert
traffic, making it hard to
compete .on the world
market,””:

The fPrince Rupert
Chamer "of Commer
ro was suppor y
citmissions from he city.of
Prince Rupert and the
Regional District of Skeena-
Queen Charolette Islands.

The Royal Commission is
expected to report its
findings to the provincial
avernment in.1976 at which
ime ai decision will
presumably be made on
whether or not to extend the

esent rail line from Prince

rge toSustut up to Dease |
Lake or to design an
alternative northern rail
route. :

i

water —

before,” said a manager:

One large chain of family:
style restaurants has
prohibited automatic water

serving in its 61 units in four

states and. Canada.

“The energy you save isn't
in the little glass of water,
but in having to wash “it

he out of 10 people never
touch their water, but you
had to wash the glass
anyhow,” she said. :

Premier pacifies group

—

VICTORIA (CP)
‘Premier Bill Bennett has
apparently pacified a group
about 20 persons who
otested in front of the
legislature Tuesday pro-
ed amendments to the
ndlord, and Tenant Act.
. Bennett told reporters
that he met with members
of the group, headed by
Bruce Yorke of Vancouver,
and explained to them that
the amendments included
the  previously-announced
reduction of the allowable
rent increase celling. —

Yorke had complained
that tenants have had no
input into the amendments,

‘yet to be introduced in the

legislature.

He said he was
particularly upset about a
recent statement by
Consumer Affairs Minister
Rafe Mair that the
amendments are. designed
to tilt the law more in favor
of the landlord.

Yorke said he would ask
the government to. ‘hoist’
-the amendments until next
session, so they can be fully

discussed in the interval. .
Bennett said, however,
that when it was pointed ou!
that the: amendments
contained pe lower rent
ease ceiling, the group.
quickly abandoned its re+
quest for hoisting, i
‘They realized then that
their position hadn’t been

clearly thought out,’’ ald
the premier, :
Bennett. said he also ex-
plained that the very input
e group was demanding

was taking place.

oy