1

DOCUMENT NAME/INFORMANT:
INFORMANT/S ADDRESS:
INTERVIEW LOCATION:
TRIBE/NATION:
LANGUAGE:
DATE OF INTERVIEW:

ARTHUR HANKIN
N/A
N/A
N/A
ENGLISH
1966 (?)

INTERVIEWER:
INTERPRETER:
TRANSCRIBER:

N/A
MELANIE NESS

SOURCE:
TAPE NUMBER:

1233: 1

DISK:
PAGES:
RESTRICTIONS:
HIGHLIGHTS:

33

2

~~ ",I almoet died in the location (inaudible) of the
Grand Train Pacific, under the supervision of A. C. Gowings.
He was the headman of the Grand Train Pacific, and he left
here on hay wire. And we left here in October, and we went
out of (inaudible), it was nine days with one rabbit and one
squirrel, and we made the Black Canyon on the Omineca. See?
And my brother (inaudible), he was scientific as a frontstairsman. And, older.

* What was his name?
** Herbert.
* Huh?
** He was older than me.
TP World War One was ...

** Herb, Herb Hankin. And, he went, I take my hat off too
because I am a monkey, you see, I see anybody do it I got to
do the same God-damned thing. When. and then we went down
and hit the Black Canyon, the Grand Train Pacific cache (?)
at the Black Canyon. Then from there on we went to Fort
MacDonald. Now I give you the story. How is this thing?

* Fine. Very good.

3

** Is it al I ready to go?
* All ready to go.

** Well, say, what I said now is on the ... ?
* You see, the point is this.
** Yeah, I used some bad language there, you better ...
* Yeah, we take it out. You don/t pay any attention to
this. We just let it run, you see?
TP Take it a little further away.

* Oh yeah. Just going to move it down a little bit.
** Is, is there somebody coming?

* Yes, no, it/s, it/s Ian who/s working the tape
recorder, you see. That/s right, there. But the point is
that we, we don/t, you, I, I ask questions and that, and
we/l I tape. we take things out of it, we only use part of
it, you get the idea? So it doesn/t matter what you say ...

** Well, don/t put any swearing in it.
* No, you can say anything you like but we/l I take it
out.

4

** Oh, I see.
* You get the idea?
** I see.
* We wouldn~t, we, we, we, we won~t worry about that.
** Well I tell you, ...
TP What did, Dick say, that that Chinaman~s name was?

* Oh, I don~t know.
** The, the, it’s brief and it’s going to be very
interesting. Now will I start?

* Go ahead, yeah.
** We stopped here some years ahead of the construction of
the Grand T~ Pacific, under the supervision of A. C.
Gowing, of the, from Montreal. You see, he was the location
-rlV.-tl~

engineer, appointed to that job for the Grand T~ln Pacific.
Several parties went out, I went with Gowing. And my
brother, and some other people went with us, there was seven
people altogether. And we went('nto the Omineca. When we
fiprv??CWls~ tr fh/kt.t;.Cf)y )

got to the Omineca, the mouth 0 ~n (?) River, we got a
raft, there was ice running on the rivers, pretty late in
the fall. It was one of the worst trips I ever undertook in

5

my life, but I was young, no better, fit for anything, fit
for any hardship that to meet. My brother was the same way,
he was one thousand times an expert, of frontierswork.
Better than anybody, and he was with me. And I went with
what he said, I listened to my (inaudible). At times, I
know you see, you just talking about. We went down the
river with the raft, and the raft we was on, went under a
driftpile, but I stopped it. And I grabbed a hold of the
driftpile I ike that, and my brother took the sack with the
matches and flung it on top of the driftpile, and going and
got me by the belt. And I couldn/t do nothing and I/m
really ... And my brother took the axe and shoved it into the
raft, as hard as he could shove it, and it went through the
driftpile, but you could lose it. /Cause in the fall of the
year, you see, there/s eight feet of space or more, under a
driftpile. You can go under it. But you wouldn/t want to
take a chance on our lives, so we put the axe in there. And
the, and then I was strong in the arms, as Goliath I guess,
I took Gowing, he was a big man, but raw-boned, I picked him
up, and I flung him on top of the driftpile like that and I
jumped up on top of the driftpile. And when the throw, the
raft came out from underneath the axe, and yet we took the
axe and lit a fire. And this was one part of the trip, I
won/t give you the whole thing, but this was one part of the

----------------------~-- ..
~--------n_---------------

6

trip, and we went along, and we travelled. heading for the
Black Canyon. I knew where we were going, but I never told
you that before. I knew the country. And we were going
through rough, rough, rough, rough mountains coming right to
E)o(.\):~

the river, we went through the tlmber. And A. C. getng, had
his instruments and he got so tired he couldn;t pack them
all so we took them up, divided them up amongst ourselves
and all his papers. And, we flnally run out of provlsions
altogether and, one of the boys shot a rabbit, couple of
days after that he shot a squirrel, that;s all we had for
nine days. I drink, I wouldn;t drink tea because it made me
vomit, I drank warm water. And sometimes just lukewarm,
just the chill off of it, that;s all, and I felt quite all
right. But Gowing was, lOSing strength pretty, pretty,
pretty fast. And one man was feeling pretty bad. He says,
"If I die, just put me up on the cache," he says, and that,
"Someone will find me here," he says. I said, "You not
gonna die, though. We; 11 make the Black Canyon." The next
day we heard somebody, we heard an axe. I said, "That;s the
sound of an axe. You bet your life," I said, "that;s an
axe." And I came down, and we seen some chips on the snow,
and I blew the snow away, I said, "There;s a little strips
of snow came yesterday, so those chips is down there
yesterday. So that fella;s out chopping wood again today."

7

And we hollered and he answered, we come to the Grand Trunk
Cache (?), to the Black Canyon, his name was Nelson. And,
there was every kind of provisions you could think of in
there. Tons of provisions, there was clothing, and
everything. And we stayed there for quite a long time, we
all fed up. But, a man named McKipner (?), he saw a big
cooked ham on the table, he grabbed the whole of it, and I
pulled it out of his mouth, some of it out of his mouth, he
swal lowed some and it nearly kil led him. He had nothing in
his stomach, you see, and I pulled it out of his mouth, and
he swallowed some of it, and it pretty near killed him. So
he got a little bit better but not quite, quite better,
always had a pain in the bel ly. And, we went, we stayed
there quite a while, then we started out again to go to Fort
McCloud. We had two English with us. Nobody ever went that
route before, I didn/t know anything about that route. So
we took two English with us, and, one, they called him Paddy
Malloy, he was a talking machine, he talked al I day and al I
night, we wouldn/t listen to him. But the other fel la had
nothing to say, nothing worth talking about. And, we come
to our last camp, when we thought we/d make McCloud Lake
from there, but I said, IIThere/s enough coffee left for each
man to have two cups of coffee in the morning, that/s all,1I
I said. Then we make Fort McCloud. Well, I went to bed, I

8

read lote of wood and went to bed, and sleep, and this
Indian that never speaks very much, he could speak English
but not a word out of him unless he had something very
important to tell you. He got up, he started singing a kind
of a song. He stopped, he fixed the fire, and went to his
package and got his martin skin that looked like cocoa in
the light. He opened it, and he took some in his hand and
he poured it in the fire. But he, about a minute it caught
fire and up went a. a streak of fire in the air, and it went
as high as the top of the trees, and he was singing away and
kind of a dance. And up it went, up it, broke off. Broke
off, danced it out, and he went to bed. And A. C. Gowing

P;:~eg:~

said to me, "What's that doing?" I'd already asked Paddy
Ma II oy what he was dol ng.

a wireless message. to Fort ~

I loy sai d. "He's sending

. There'll be provisions

to meet us tomorrow, at twelve o'clock. That's the
message." So, I told that to, to A. C. Gowing. I'd been
joking a lot with Gowing, and he never answered me, he
thought I was joking with him, but I wasn't. I told him
just exactly what Paddy Malloy told me. So, when we got up
in the morning, there was enough, we had to drink the coffee
and we started. We come to a lake I thought it was, but at
second look it wasn't a lake, it was a big open flat with a
jackpine tree there and there. On the end of this big

9

tremendoust flat, apparently two miles long, was something
coming, a black object. And I looked and looked and we all
looked. We said, "What's that?" "A man?" we said, and he
said, "No, that's a woman. II IIHow do you know?1I He said,
IICan't you see her skirts going this way? She's coming
right along.1I Just then, she disappeared. Al I that was, a
puff of smoke came up, she lit a fire, I guess. And, when
we came up to where she was, she had this real old tampered
down brush with a Hudson Bay tablecloth spread on top of the
brush, with sandwiches there, meat and bread and Jam and
cheese and, a big pot of hot coffee and pot of hot tea. And
oh, this Indian that don't talk too much walked up to A. C.
Gowing, he never called him Gowing, he cal led him Boss
Tuppers (?) or the Boss. He said, IIWell, what is i t?1I
IIWhat t Ime ?" He said, "Twe l ve o= c l ock ;" "Tha t e all
r

right.1I And, we had a good lunch there. She never said
much, all she said, IIEat. Have a lunch.1I That's al I she
said. She was a Seekaneega (?) Indian girl. And she
twisted her snowshoes on, took the two pots, shoved them
together, and tied it up in the Hudson Bay tablecloth, put
her arms through the loops of the cloth, and twisted and
grabbed her gun, and she says, IIFollow my tracks.1I So we
followed them. We come that night to Fort McCloud, she had
been there hours before us, she was going like a moose. And

10
Wf1 to] Ij her, II Le t eomeoodv p.:tc:k, I e t eomebocv p.:tGk. II

:::he

says. "No." She went out to meet her brothers who were
overdue hunting caribou. and this Indian listened. this
Indian that don/t talk very much. he started to laugh. he
says. II Come here. come here. II he says to the gi r I. "Now you
te I I me. II he says. II wha t happened?" She says, "I had a
funny dream last night, I got up so confused I didn/t know
what to do. I was shaking al lover. I sat there and cut
bread, and make sandwiches. And I started to cut meat, and
I got some tea and some sugar and some coffee. and I put
them into the pots and plIed my tablecloth. and I grabbed my
gun and put on my snowshoes. out I went. I followed my
brother/s tracks, for many miles. Then I left them, and I
turned to the left. And I got to a big open country.1I she
said, "I was never there before. I seen somebody there. I
counted them. Seven men. I said. /That/s my dream./II She
got. after a while. "I sent you a message last night, that/s
what made you tremble. and the message fell right on top of
you. And you got up and you made those sandwiches.1I He
said, "That is exactly what I done." Bllly Ware (?) was
the, was the factor of the Hudson Bay Company at the time.
he didn/t know what to say then. He didn/t know if it went.
see? And, A. C. Gowlng wrote it all down. Took it back to
the museum ln, somewhere.

11

* Did you know, ...

* Did you know this Billy Ware?
** Who?
* This Billy Ware, did you know him?
** Billy Ware, oh sure.
* AnythIng about him that you could tell us?
** Oh, he was the factor at the Hudson Bay. And he came
out to Fort St. James. And R. E. Loring married him to Mrs.
Ware, Mrs. Ware then. And he was capable, before he married
her, you know. It was a magistrate and an Indian agent and,
somebody else besides that again. And, he came out to the
Hudson Bay Company, he lived his life out and around
Vancouver somewhere, I think he~s dead now.

** I think so. Billy Ware.
* Where did he come from? Was he from England?

** He was an Englishman. Oh yes. Hudson ...

12

~

Do you r ememoer anythinfl about him, .3ofty of h i e st ori ee ,

any stories about him, or anythIng like that?

** Well, he was a fur trader with the Hudson Bay Company.
He raised a big family, and lived his life out somewhere in
Vancouver, Mrs. Ware and the family, they rode up the, the,
the chIldren are still young yet, of course, no, not too
old.

* Tell me about, your stepfather, Mr. Loring. He was a
very interesting man, and we haven~t heard too, only heard
about him incidentally, you know.

** Mr. Loring is the, was the Indian agent for thirtyseven years, he held that Job in Hazelton. And the county
was wild then, of course, and he, he was the first cousin of
the Empor Fursha (??), he was the first cousin of the
Kaisers. And he married my mother when I was about six
years old, and he came up the Skeena river in a canoe, and
he was Indian agent al I that time, and he done pretty well.
he was a pretty good Indian agent, he followed hunters and
traders all through the country with his horses. And when
he, he~d take up a reserve for the Indians, and then report
it afterwards to Ottawa. When he made a cornerpost he got
the Indians to carve a totem pole, that was the cornerpost
of Indian reserves and the/said totem pole stands yet, close

13

to Graeey Plaine, in Graeey, Graeey Plaine, in the, Burne
Lake district. Yes. sir. that;s the cornerpost of one
Indian reserve. And he;d layout the reserves, and then he
would report it afterwards. You ever see that totem pole
corner? The totem pole.
TP I never saw it, but I heard of a totem pole crOSSing at
the creek there.

** Yes. well that;s the totem pole he put up.
TP A chief told me about it.

** A man named Jimmy Michel carved it. And the tribal
embassy said it would last a long time and it;s standing
yet. You know. you know Coral (?)? Pat Coral?
TP No.

* Carroll.
** Carrol I?
* Oh, yes.
** Well. he;s. he saw it recently. Carroll?
* Carroll.

** How do you pronounce it, how do you spell it?

14

TP C-a-r-r-o-l-l.

** Oh, Tarroll.
TP Yeah.

** Parroll.
* Carroll, yes. C.
TP Patty Carroll.

** Yeah, I know. He was here this spring, he came to see
me.

* What year?
** He was here this spring, yeah.

* Tell me about Mr. Loring, what brought him out to, to
Canada?

** Beg your pardon?
* Why did Mr. Loring come out to Canada, what brought him
out here?

** He came into the, he left Germany and he went to
Arizona in the mining excitement in Arizona. And met up
with al I sorts of wild English who wanted to get another,

15

and finally found his way out to British Columbia. And. he
was an artist, one of the best. The two pictures that he
draw are stil I in the country. he had to hang up in the
house and kids would actually pay you to go up and look at
them. And ...

* Which house at Kispiox?
** What?
* Which house at Kispiox?
** In Harris/s residence. They. I. it/s nine miles from
Hazelton. And. have you got time tomorrow?

* Well. someday we/)l have to have time to go up there ...
** Yes. and his, his name is right on the. right on the
pictures.

* What, what was his, did he have a title back in, in, in
Germany? Was he a, a count or something like that?

** He was a baron.
* He was a baron.

** Baron, yeah.
* Baron Von Loring, I suppose.

1
6

**

His name was, Baron Von WIlkie, but he changed it to R.

E. Loring.

*

Wilkie.

**

Wilkie.

*

W-i-l-

**

k-i-e.

*

i-e.

** He was, he was, he was, he changed it to R. E. Loring.
Richard ... something, Ernest Loring. And he was the finestlooking man I/d ever laid my eyes on.

* He must/ve been a very, clever man, very confident.
** He was very clever, yes, he was clever, he was, he was,
he was, he was a mixer of drugs and a doctor of geology.
And an artist.

* It/s funny that he would come out here to this country
with al I that. I mean, something here must have want, he
must have wanted to come, something that was ...

** Well, I would tell you what he want, but shut this
thing off.

17

* Shut it off Ian, a bit.
** Can you shut this off?
* Yeah, would you shut it off. (Break in tape)

* ...... .... he didn/t like the restrictions back there, yeah.
Yeah

.

** But I couldn/t, I couldn/t ...
* He turned it on again now.
** But that/s about all I can tell you now.

* Sure. That/s the way with lots of people who came out
here, you know. Could I ask you one or two things Just
before you take it off.

** Alright.
* Just some questions I wanted to ask you about. About
Hazelton and the, Hazelton in the old days, as you remember
it, you know, what kind of a town was it that you grew up
in.

** Hazelton was nothing but log cabins. Many log cabins,
a whole row of log cabins while mine was just a winter in,
coming out from the mines, come up here in winter, summer I

18

go down to the coast, come back in the spring. And a lot of
old-timers like James May and Ezrie Evans, and McKinnon and
those fellas, they wintered in Hazelton. In the Hudson Bay
cabin they cal led them. And, the, the, transportation was
canoes, nothing to see forty or fifty canoes coming up, with
two tonnes in each canoe, up to Hazelton. Distributing
through the Hudson Bay interior, Hudson Bay post. Then in
eighteen-hundred ninety-one, a steamboat arrived in
Hazelton, known as the Caledonia. Arrived in Hazelton
eighteen ninety-one. And, I guess I was about that big at
the time, and ...

* You can remember that coming, can you?
** Yes, and she had the loudest whistle on, they made it
that way, I guess, it, they heard it thirty miles out here.
She had a whistle, it was thirty miles. Lord, and the
people used to go down to gather the whole, the whole
community go down to look at that boat every time she come
in. See the big sternwheeler, with all kinds of power. The
next year, she came up again, they build a new Caledonia,
much bigger than that, she come up again. Load hundreds of
tonnes, and bring in supplies to the country. No more
canoes out on the river. Yes.

19

* Was there, an Indian village here long before the white
people came?

** Oh yes. The Indian village was here long before the
white men came, and just below Hazelton, just a, just a few
hundred feet, just below, just below Hazelton, more at the
mouth of the Bulkley than anywhere. And, they ...

* Your father was the first white man to come up here,
wasn"t he?

** First one, the first one yeah. He named Hazelton,
cal led it Hazelton "cause lots of hazelbrush here.

* Somebody told me today, something which I didn"t
believe, because I always understood your father was the
first to come up here and establish a trading post.

**
*

He was the first, yes.

~.f-a-f1' zi ;{
They said that the ~l)mans (?~ came up, and I said he

came up a lot later.

** Oh, he came up, lot later. And, after Neumans"s death,
in eighteen ... ninety-four. Dime and C (?) took him over,
Art Cunningham and Son, they established Hazelton there.

* Jilmans was murdered, wasn"t he?

20

** What?
* Wasn/t Jllmans murdered?
~~ H~ wae. h~ wae 6tabb~d with a knife by an Indian. in

Hazelton, yes.

* Was, was Hazelton a pretty, rough town when you
remember it? Or was it qulte a quiet place, how was it?

** No, they had to, they had to build a stockade around
the Hudson Bay post, though, a big stockade there, and, and
watch what we were doing. Engllsh were predjudiced,
predjudlced, I don/t know, kinda predjudiced. Treachery,
treachery amongst them, you see. And, then everything was
taken into the Hudson Bay post in those early days by, the
Indians, packing it on their backs and on a horse or two.
/Til Reath/s and Bowlen/s (?) pack train came in, and took
the thing over. And packed everything into Babine po, over
the (inaudible) with about a hundred mules.

* That was the first pack train in here.
** The first pack train for the Hudson Bay Company yes.
Bowlen.

21
44

Reath and Bowlen from the Caribou Road 150 MIle House.

They came in here.
4 I see. Was that about the same time Cataline came in

here?

** Cataline, came in here, before, before that. Cataline
came through from Caribou, the pack train, he went to
Cassiar. He packed into Cassiar, put down a quarter of a
pound. He got, came in the pack train was loaded with
southside bacon. He went through to, to Cassiar.

* What was he dOing up in the Cassiar there, what?
** He made a trip up there, went back again to the Caribou
that same year.

* What would there be up in the Cassiar that he would go
up there for?

** That was the Mugdame/s (?) Creek, past the mining.
Yes.

* What year would that be about?
** /Bout seventy-six.
* And that be the first pack train to come through here?

22

** No, there were pack trains before that, there was pack
trains in eighteen-hundred seventy-two came to (inaudible)~
Cataline.

* Came up, straight up, yeah.
** Yes.
* And then they gradually came over this way, yeah.
** They gradually came over this way.
* Yeah, I see. Before that, then it was the Indian women
particularly, wasn/t it, that carried the stuff over?

** Well, not particularly anybody. Everybody took a load
over if it was on the pack, maybe fifty, sixty pounds, and
u

so on, so on. That way. It was nothing to see three, four
hundred of them going in, they were as good a pack train.
But it was too much, bother, /bout the factor at Babine, his
name was, MacDonald, and MacIntosh, the factors. They had
to go to, everybody to wait really, you see. But when Bob,
Bob Bowlens came in with his pack train, well that stopped
all that nonsense.

* This trail to Babine, was it quite a big, wide open
trail, or what kind of a trail was it in there?

2
3

** Just a trail. A horse trail wore out by travelling.
And, once in a while the government would appropriate a few
hundred dollars to fix it up. Yes.

*

What would they have to do to fix it up?

** Well, putting in (inaudible) over bad mudholes and
cutting down, cutting windfal Is out of the trail. That/s
about al I.

* Any bridges on it at all?
** Bridges bad creeks like Twenty Mile and all those bad
creeks, or big creeks. Unportable.

* Where did it go up to, did it go up to this road here?
** They went up right this road, right down here they
Gal l~d it down h~r~, itfe th~ Babin~ trail.

* This road going right up here?
** No, no, this way.

* Oh, it goes up that way?

** Yeah.
* Is there any trail up there, probably nowadays?

----------------~--~~--------~--------------------

24

** You can go to Babine now. on the. the same trail. Yes.
and It klnda caught fire. and it burnt every stick of timber
from here to Manson Creek, kill your fire prospect, whenever
they spot a fire they let it burn, you see. It burnt the
whole country off. Wasn/t a stick of dry tlmber on Babine
Moun, there wasnlt a stick of green timber on Babine
Mountain, all burnt. And now it/s all grown up again. Yes,
balsam timber.

* Have you any suggestions with, marking something about,
the Hazelton country ...
TP I thought of something and by gosh lIve forgotten
again. Oh, did you ever know Jim Brand?

** Who?
TP Jim Brand. Prospector, Telegraph Creek.

** Jim Brand, no, I dldn/t ever met him, but I heard the
name, though.
TP You heard the name.

** Yeah, I never met him. Oh, I met lots of them. I
never met him, though. Jim Brand. Oh, I heard the name, my
brother could talk about him, he lived in Telegraph Creek
for a while.

25

* You used to work on the telegraph lInes, didn/t you.
** I did for a little while.

* Yeah, I remember a picture of you, that/s published in
a book somewhere, you remember a plcture of you standing in
front of a cabin there.

** Oh, yes. Where were you?

* I wasn/t there, but I seen this picture in the book.
** Oh, you (inaudible) hanging up there?
* Yeah. It seemed to me, you were standing 1n front of
this cabin ...

** Yeah, and lots of fur.
* Yeah.
** Yeah, I caught lots of fur in that, I beat my wages up
there nearly $120 a month. I brought in two, three hundred
dollars in one day one time. Yeah.
TP Well?

* Yeah, well it/s a ...
** This thing is finished.

26

*

... long time back, oh yes, it/s almost finished.

** Yeah. kinda dull.
Gan we, cut it off Ian. for a moment please and ...

** I/m. I/m. I gotta. I ... (Break in tape)
** ... London. And get the name down, Thomas Hankin.
Thomas Hankin.

* Where this diary is?
** Yes. and find out. about that book. They wouldn/t give
it to you. I don/t think.

* I could get a copy of it probably.
** You might.
* The question is where ...
** And I/m the son of that Thomas Hankin, you can tell him
that. And you could. you might. nothing like making an
effort.

* Wel I I did before, you know. I, your sister told me it
was a man called Darcy.

** Darcy. John Darcy.

27

* Well, Darcy or Dawson.
** No, Darcy.
* She said it was Dawson. you see.
** Darcy.
* And it was. I suppose it was this Darcy that was over
at Telkwa, was it?

** Well. he was in this country yes.
* And. I wondered, then I fol lowed that up, but, I didn/t
get anywhere with that. I wrote to Smithsonian Institution,
you know what I mean, and I wrote to McGill University
/cause I thought maybe it was, Dawson, who was the explorer
that came here ...

** I see.
* And. either one of those. but there was no record in
either of those places. So you see, I have been following
it up, but you were pretty sure that it was an Englishman.
not a, not a ...

** My mother told me herself. She. "Very sorry I done
that," she said, "but, he wanted it so bad but said he would
return it. And I gave him the great big book." Everything.

28

all in his own handwriting, he was a good writer, easy to
read, everything. About the country and everything. And he
came out, he was seventeen years old, when he came to this
country. And he came up the Skeena River and the canoe
upset and he swam across the Skeena River.~ And, he was
(~

seventeen years old. They cal I it Hanger/s (?) River today.
Swam across the river. He was an adventurous son of a gun,
he would do anything.

* He was working for Hudson/s Bay then, wasn/t he when he
when he came in.

** He was with the Hudson/s Bay for a while, then he had
his own stores. He had a store down the mouth of the
Bulkley River here. Lecurix was another man, a Frenchman
came here, Lequay. Had another store there, but this was
only told to me, I never seen stuff before my time, you see.

* Lecurix, how would that be spelled?

** L-e-c-u-r-i-x. Lecurix.
*

Lecurix, yes. The Hebrew Lequoi (?).

{J tft/b rr e (
** Gaber Lecruix, they called that Lequay (?) in French.
Like a man, he spells his name C-h-a-m-p-s, how would you
pronounce that? C-h-a-m-p-s.

29

* Champs (shomp). Champs, in French.
** C-h-a-m ... DeChamps.
* DeChamps, yeah.
** D-e-C-h-a-m-p-s. DeChamps.
* Was there somebody out there called that?
** No, that name was in this country. And how would you,
how would you pronounce, how would you spell benoit?

* B-e-n-o-i-t.
** Yeah, that~s right. That~s right, b-e-n-o-i-t.
* Yeah, but this, Gabrel Lecurix, he was one of the
first, up here, after your dad, was he?

** Yeah, he was one, one of the first. Gabrel Lecurix.
He raised a family here.

* Would he have come up here in the sixties or the
seventies?

** Oh, Lord knows when. Might have been the seventies.

* ~Cause your dad came up in sixty-six, didn~t he? I
mean a hundred years ago?

30

** A hundred years ago, yeah.
* They founded Hazelton a hundred years ago.
** He went back, to England, you see. And he came back
here again. Got acquainted with a girl called Margaret
McCaul I , she was a dancer, she was a dancing battleship,
just as my mother. And, she called me one day, she called
me a young man. "Come here, young man." I was about twelve
years old, about eleven. IICome here. Take that box there."
I took the box. lIyou go and build a fire outside.1I So I
did. And she said, IINow start wiping your tears. Take
these kilts and put them on there and burn them.1I She burnt
all her dancing regalia, she not dance no more. She was a
champion dancer. And she danced against a girl that became
Mary MacDonald, from Scotland. And the admiral of the
battleship bawled her out, she said, IIWhat did you do that
for, what did you threw that dance away?! II She said, III
don't want to dance no more. II Mary MacDonald couldn't dance
(inaudible) a nurse, she said, but she just threw the dance,
she didn't want to dance no more.

* What was your mother's name, maiden name.

** Margaret McCaull.
And she lived in Victoria, did she?

31

** Hudson/s Bay Company daughter, the factor of Hudson Bay
Company.

* Where was he factored?
** What?

* Where was he a factor?
** The factor?

* Yes. Where was he the factor, where, where was McCaul I
the factor?

** He came from the old country, Scotland.
* Yes. Where was he, where was he stationed, I mean what
part of the ... ?

** Fort, Fort Victoria, Victoria B. C.

* Before, what was his first name, McCaul I?
** What?
* What was his first name, McCaul}?
** The, the, the factor?

* Yeah.

r

32

~~

MGGaull. I c{on/t know his first name.

* C-o-double I?
** McCau 1 1 .

* Or c-a-u-l?
** C-a-u-double 1, McCaul 1, or McCaull. That/s the only
name, McCaull.

* Yes.

** Not McCollie but McCaull.
* That/s very interesting, yeah. Yeah. Well then, of
course, I suppose as soon as he set up a trading post here
then, everything started to happen around here, people began
to come and it became quite a, sort of a ...

** Yeah. Well, I gotta go.

*

Yeah.

~~LkL/:$~

TP

When you see ~alve (?7), when he comes home,

will you tell him, I/m sorry I dldn/t see him.

** Who?
TP Charley Sterrit.

3
3

** Charley Sterrit. yeah. They live down here. oh ...
IAN Hey, that worked, those dogs that went tsk tsk

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